Things you learn from Atheists
Jim November 12th, 2009
From time to time one of my atheist friends will point out what he or she feels to be insane about the Christian religion. I thought it might be interesting to toss out a few things I’ve recently come across or been sent along these lines. I guess in some respects these videos represent how Christianity appears to some people on the outside looking in. As you will see, there is some satire involved but I think you will get the point.
What I’m wondering is this – are there things about the brand of “Christianity” you learned that seem off to you or don’t make sense? What is it that just doesn’t seem to add up?
Let’s all agree to allow each other to be where we are and to have whatever doubts or misgivings we might have. Maybe these are doubts or questions you are currently working through. Perhaps there are certain beliefs you once held that you have since let go of.
I’m guessing there are aspects of the “Christianity” that you learned that you know in your gut can’t be true. Maybe you spent a lot of time and energy trying to make it work. Not anymore. Maybe for you this involves doubts about the central premises of the Christian faith. Or maybe it’s the underlying logic that seems to be behind the entire Christian system. Maybe it’s something you can’t really put your finger on but you just know something is off.
Are there beliefs you once held that most definitely now have a ring of insanity to them. What are these for you? What doesn’t make sense or add up anymore? Have you let go of certain ideas and beliefs because they seemed to violate your most basic sense of knowing? What doesn’t add up for you anymore?
Here are a few videos from my atheist friends:
Mr. Deity and the Evil
An Atheist Meets God
God’s Checklist
Are Christians Atheists?
A person’s faith and their religious/spiritual beliefs are deeply personal. It can be quite hurtful when others attack or ridicule our deeply held beliefs about God and truth. Keep this in mind for this post. I truly want to know what things you question or no longer believe but keep in mind that we are all at a different place on the journey. It’s okay to be where you are but it’s not okay to insist that others be where you are. It doesn’t matter what others think. Just be honest and share where you are.
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- Comments(29)
I guess my problem with the “stories” of the Bible have more to do with the literalness of them rather than whether or not they are TRUE. When we understand the limits of the language of the writers, it is easier to conceive of why they wrote the way they did. They were trying to express the unexpressable and were limited to human language. These stories in the NT: virigin birth, Jesus walking on water, wine to water, etc; OT: Noah’s Ark, Jonah in the fish, mystery of Cain’s wife, Adam & Eve as literal characters (original sin), are to be believed only if one assumes that there is a deity above the sky. Only then do so many of the Biblical stories make sense at all. How else could Jesus come out of the sky (from his father above the sky) to give the “Great Commission”. How else could manna pour down from heaven unless God operated from beyond the sky. I have finally come to see the presuppostions that believing these stories require of us. The theism of traditional Christianity is dying. The anthropomorphic, monarchial God has been questioned successfully by modern and post-modern science. It has changed my views to the point of being willing to question and research any and all the stories found in the Bible; to search for the reasons why these stories were written the way that they were. For me, the literalness is gone and in its place a demythologising of those stories is taking place. To me, this does not destroy the truths which the authors were trying to present. It simply places them in another light.
The “brand” of Christians that God used to bring me to him have created a lot of their own problems. Last century, they saw the scientific atheists asking for “proof”, and they went on an insistence of the absolute literal, scientific proof of the bible.
This becomes problematic when one or more of their positions (young earth creationism, for example) becomes more and more obviously contradicted by scientific discoveries. And instead of adjusting their positions, they hold on to them with even greater ferocity, and accuse those making the discoveries of dishonesty. And they spend a lot of energy doing it.
I fear this doesn’t do much for the spread of the gospel and the Kingdom…it gives those who don’t know God an excuse not to look any further for Him, because “I sure don’t want to be like them.”
I like Brian McLaren’s observation of the shift in our culture that leads people to really value authenticity and relationship…my fundie friends have missed this so far, and are fighting battles from before the cultural shift. Jim, thanks for being a nudge for the Body of Christ in the direction that is really valuable for Western Culture.
i probably connect more with “agnostics” than atheists (not sure i know any athiests – i’m sure i do, but not necessarily aware they are atheists – not even sure how to spell it really)..to me both “faith subscribing” and “non-faith subscribing” folks – are equally as likely, in my experience – to revert to “apologetics” and “fundamentalism” , “lingo” etc, than agnostics…. those average joes – like my Pa – who i love to bits – that say, “well….. i think there is a power out there – but i’ll be damned if i can understand it and i sure don’t know why it took Mom when she was enjoying herself in this life. no answers, no – there’ll never be any answers”… it is THIS man , for whom my heart aches , breaks and for whom , in part, “I” long – to know that I know – for myself , for him – this Love, this Hope that passes all understanding… not thru “apologetics” – not thru “noses and nickels”, and not thru those stacking brick after brick next to the other guy stacking brick after brick ( “I thought ‘YOU’ knew what we were doing”- like some heard it thru the grapvevine but no one can actually verify stuff no matter how many tracts get distributed)
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All, I can do at this moment – is pay attention to my deepest desires – my deepest hopes – my deepest core longings -as I understand them – November 12, 2009 at 1915 – that I might know and be known fully ; that I might love and know all Love – both for now and for eternity – that I might be transformed and healed into the fullness of my Truest Self – that non-ego , fully loving woman that i “sometimes” catch a glimpse of – that I might more deeply know that I know that He holds it all – and that all WILL be well.
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Rick and I spoke about some of this via “chat” the other day. I could not really articulate why I feel to my toes – eternity in my heart, and a deep, deep cry in my heart that all good never, EVER ends. I was SO borne to Love, to live! – but NOT for just that statistical average life span for a north american female (because of good nutrition or medical access), or that average lifespan for that destitute poverty stricken woman of the Sudan post gang rape – but FOREVER… and no matter how hard i might consider trying – i just KNOW that that hunger is a core definer of my very essence – my very being….my very hope – and I can no more deny it than i can deny the nose on my face…..I can no more explain that to Rick than to myself – it is just THERE. and I hunger for Him. do i have core “beliefs”? yes – actually i do… but they do not serve me well when the vulnerabilities of the heart are laid MOST bare – and too often are only used in this world as fighting tools against those with a different view. I am no longer (if I ever was) interested in ‘winning’ an arguement – debating whether or not “there is a God ” – (either apologetically, philosophically, or metaphorically)… i can ONLY follow the nose of my deepest desires as i understand them… and for me – right now – with no arguement – despite the deep wounding of others – want Him – Jesus…. that is all I know.
One big thing I don’t think I could ever consider again is hell (if it exists at all as we traditionally envision it) as a place of eternal torment. I just don’t see Father God that way at all anymore.
Oh, and just a thought here. I was watching the Mr. Deity videos, trying to really listen and understand why they were saying what they said, but I got completely derailed when they talked about down syndrome as being a sort of “proof” of “God’s” injustice & cruelty. I wasn’t upset so much as befuddled, because I have a 7 year old son with down syndrome. It has had the complete opposite effect for me. I have come to understand more & more about God’s love since he came into our lives. I just kept thinking “they’re missing it…they don’t get it”. I don’t mean to discount any of the tragic things that happen in life that they mentioned, but I have to wonder….what else don’t we get?
To be most honest Friends, in a prior post we talked about the creation story. I cannot believe in the depths of my soul that GOD would condemn an entire race of people for the sins of one. I would not do that to my own children and refuse to even entertain that idea any longer.If we were created in God’s image, this would be contradictory to His/Her nature IMHO. Having said this out loud, I suppose you could say I don’t buy “CHRISTIANITY” in it’s present form. Being away from TC for 5 years now has taught me that we have been manipulated by fear. Fear of what? The unknown. The mystery. The secret. Why do we feel it necessary to put everything we don’t understand into a tiny box, tape it up and label it whatever we think it should be? I suggest we attempt to be comfortable with mystery! If we truly trust God, or whatever, whomever created all of this, nothing else would matter and we could live free from the chains that religion securely fastens around our heart and soul.
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While I do not consider myself and atheist, I can respect their views much more than in recent years. Please note ♪ this is my own humble opinion….
cheryl -
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i didn’t watch any of the videos, etc but my heart ached when i read your words re your child with Down Syndrome – children who I personally find to be exceptionally delightful, loving , joyful and free spirited. I am not at all surprised to hear of the blessing you find your child to be. I have spoken to so many parents who feel the same! In fact, I interact with parents of many “damaged” children and am continuously humbled by the joy and love that they derive both from their children, as well as in caring for them.
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I sort of feel sick to be honest that some would propose your son’s existence as some sort “proof” against anything….. whoa. “Box” thinking is pretty endemic, i think, and is certainly not limited to any “group” – : )
My God transitions went like this…
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I left legalistic god for grace god.
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I left grace god for love god.
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I left love god for god is all god (this is when god came out of the sky for me)
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I left god is all god for I don’t know if there’s a god @ all
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Cheryl,
You are so totally on the right track, here.
Cheryl,
I can understand your questioning their use of Down Syndrome in their video. I am just wondering why they didn’t use bipolar disease. I watched my 34 year old son suffer from this disease for half of his life. He was the most caring, loving person I knew. He always said he was spiritual but not religious. He believed in what he called the “One Love”. He died by his own hand a year ago. Not only did I loose my child, I also lost my faith. I guess I am still in the wilderness trying to figure it all out. Any insight would be helpful.
Hi Sylvia. I can’t imagine anything in this world more painful than seeing our children suffer. It’s also the pain of feeling helpless and powerless to change it or rescue them from it. I have experienced this pain in my own way, and I’m sure there isn’t a day that goes by that you don’t feel it deeply yourself.
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For me, this is where a lot of stuff I learned and taught about God doesn’t add up. The fact that your son was a spiritual person and spoke of things so beautiful as “One Love” doesn’t compensate for the other obvious fact that God at some level it was okay for your son to have bipolar disease. It doesn’t do much good to say God didn’t directly “cause it” or to blame humankind in someway for the existence of bipolar disease. At the end of the day there is a God who must be held accountable for devising a system where these realities even had the opportunity to exist. To say it was “necessary” to truly allow “free will” or to accomplish some higher purpose/good seems totally screwed up. I can’t imagine choosing to rig a system where it was possible for my daughter to be molested or abused in some way even if somehow in the end some “good” came out of it. So, I totally get how losing faith and belief in God is the natural response. The whole “it’s a mystery and we can’t understand” explanation seems like a load of crock too. What’s not to understand? Your child had bipolar disease and took his life AND there is God. Those two things don’t seem like they should be appearing in the same sentence – Bipolar disease/suicide AND God.
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So, I have no desire to talk you into THAT God. I’m with you. Deep inside I instinctively know that that this can’t be “God” or there is no “God” at all. This is why I totally understand atheists. It makes sense. The explanation of “God” seems totally insane and violates even the most basic sense of goodness, and so they don’t buy it.
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Lets put aside the whole “God” question for a moment. Are there ways you/I could face and respond to the tragedy of your son that would enable you to move on with your life and find peace and freedom? Notice I didn’t say “erase your pain” because I’m imagining that it would be normal to always carry some pain about this. And if that’s true, I wonder if the deal is that pain and freedom/peace can exist simultaneously. Like maybe what it means to be human is to absorb deep pain and still find be free and at peace.
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If we laid aside the idea of “God” how might one find this freedom/peace in the midst of deep pain? At some level it seems one would have to come to some sort of acceptance of the situation and the emotional pain it produces inside of you.
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I don’t have all the answers but I wonder what exactly is the source of your deep emotional pain. What exactly about your son’s disease and death produces that deep emotional pain? Can you put it into words? It seems like for me that when I name and face my emotional pain with myself and others that it doesn’t necessarily take it away or box it up in a nice tidy explanation but it helps me somehow move through it and absorb it into my life.
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I feel a lot of love and compassion for you Sylvia. More than anything I would hope there were a few flesh and blood real people who were expressions of love and compassion in your life. People who would simply listen to your pain, be there with you in it, not necessarily fix it or try to explain it away but just walk in the darkness with you until you spotted a few rays of light in the distance.
Sylvia,
My heart hurts with your heart. The son of a family friend died via suicide a few years ago. He was a gifted young man who just couldn’t get the monkey of drug addiction off his back. The family is still devastated.
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When I think about him though, I don’t see the drug addict or the suicide victim. I see the ‘him’ who was loving and gifted. Drug addiction was something he experienced, something that unfortunately happened TO him…and so was suicide, but it was not his Identity, the ‘essence’ of who he was. That was Love. And, in the end, I believe it is Love that remains, for all of us.
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Peace!
Jane – what you write “makes sense” to me at a deep level. As usual…… : )
Jane,
Thankyou…What you just said is what I believe and I so needed to hear that right now for myself. I have a sis that died a few years ago from drug addiction, a brother and other sister that is still struggling, my mom most of her adult life had a chronic pain pill addiction and died almost two years ago…and I am the most of them sober, but not quite.. I currently can’t or really don’t want to stay away from alcohol or some pills..I love God, but am so fearful when I succumb, He doesn’t like it, but I am unwilling at this point to let go of it..
My best friend in high school, Mike, was an alcoholic and committed suicide. Prior to that, his father died young by heart attack, and Mike’s older brother committed suicide. Mike chose to drink alcohol as a way of coping with all of this heartache in his life. It wasn’t uncommon for his mom to call me in the middle of the night to come sit with Mike at his request. Normally Mike would be in bed, tormented by deep emotional pain. I would sit on the side of his bed and talk with him until he fell asleep.
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Mike’s mom owned and operated a small ice cream shop in Blacksburg. After Mike died I would stop in to see how she was doing. She was always so happy to see me. I loved her also. She had lost a husband, and then two sons by suicide. I ached for her, and could feel her loneliness when I visited her at the ice cream shop. I think she began to think of me as her son. I liked that. I needed a mom.
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Mike was black. I am white. In my high school, our friendship seemed a little odd to most people. Mike could play a guitar like Jimi Hendrix, and I would go over to his house to hear him play. He was extremely talented but was too shy to let others (except me) hear him. Mike was pretty much a loner. I was too. We found each other.
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Mrs. Smith would jokingly tell people that I was her “white son.” She was a strong woman but I was deeply touched by her love, kindness, and the way she favored me. I made regular trips to that ice cream shop because she made me feel special and loved. I also got free ice cream
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Mike’s mom, Mrs. Smith, had a very significant impact on my life. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to escape my childhood without being more screwed up than I am. I feel like I owe a great debt of gratitude to Mrs. Smith. She had endured so much pain and heartache – more than any one person should have to endure. And yet, she saw me. She noticed. She knew Mike’s death had hurt me too. My best friend was gone. Best friends weren’t easy to come by for a person like me. She and I were joined together by the tragedy of her son’s suicide. We reached out for each other, and a special bond was made. We gave and received love in our own way. I will always be Mrs. Smith’s “white son.” I will always feel a pang of sadness in my heart about Mike. After all these years I can still see his face, hear his laugh, and wish he was here now.
Thank you Jane and Jim for your response.
Jim,
in response to your question , I guess what produces that deep emotional pain is I didn’t totally understand the disease he had. I recently read this blog about the myths of mental illness:
http://grace1971.blogspot.com/2009/10/debunking-myths-about-mental-illness-i.html
I believed some of those myths and that is something I will always live with.
I feel like I failed him as a mother… to take care of him… to make things better for him … to make his pain go away… to always protect him. That’s a mother’s job isn’t it? If I have these feelings as an earthly parent where is God’s grace, mercy, love and peace as our heavenly parent?
So I guess for me the deep emotional pain comes from loosing a part of me when my son died and at the same time loosing faith and hope in a God I had always loved.
Thanks for listening to me and responding. I just don’t feel like I can talk about these feeling to my family or friends.
…..holding others’ stories…. with heart listening, with a posture of sacred trust, with gentleness, kindness, acceptance and dignity…. seems really, for me, like the most important thing I can offer to another – the thing I most DO want to offer to another. my heart aches….Jen, Sylvia, Mrs. Smith, Jim….many others.
Sylvia, I can’t imagine a more painful feeling than feeling one has failed their own children. I’m sure if I was able to go back and walk through the years of you and your son together that I would find countless times that you did not fail him – those endless number of times you loved him, cared for him, provided for him, met his need, and let him know how loved and special he was, and showered him with motherly love. I’m sure this wasn’t always an easy thing to do but you pressed on in the name of love for your son. You did the best you could. There is no doubt you loved your son.
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I imagine that your son would want you to be free from the emotional turmoil you now feel. Just as you love him, he loves you. And because he loves you, he would not want you to be swallowed up by the pain and heartache of how you imagine you might have failed him. Perhaps a way you could continue loving your son would involve being open to letting those feelings of self-condemnation go – to no longer grasp or hold onto those hurtful thoughts and feelings. I’m sure you would be open to this if your son genuinely and lovingly appealed to you to do so.
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Yes I know, easier said than done. What would it mean for you to chart a new way starting tomorrow – a way of letting that self-condemnation go, a way of loving and accepting yourself, a way of making peace with your son’s life and death, a way of being free from the burden and weight that is now heavy upon you? How could you start down such a path beginning tomorrow? How could we help?
You are already helping Jim just by letting me have a place to share my deepest feelings. I am not good at putting my feelings into words ,but it does help to have this place to read other peoples feelings and occasionally share where I am on my journey.
Tomorrow is the anniversary of my sons death, maybe after that I can try to work on some of your suggestions.
One more question… before I would always cry out to God in prayer, who do I cry out to now?
Your friend Mike and his mother were very fortunate to have a friend like you.
Hi Sylvia, I’m thinking about you today…carrying you in my heart. Seems like quite a few people on this blog have expressed the thought that “God” is a mystery. Sometimes we get stuck between what we know “God” CAN’T be and not quite sure exactly who/what “God” is. The way this worked out for me is that I accepted that there would always be a mystery to “God” and that trying to figure it out in my head wasn’t helpful. Instead, I began listening to my heart and deepest feelings, and touched something real that had a ring of life and freedom to it that I knew was worth listening to and following.
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So, I don’t know how that translates for you other than to be open to the possibility that there is an “eternal” dimension that lies within you. Seems like you are conflicted about “God” in your head, and so it’s likely not to be resolved there. Maybe instead try listening to your deepest feelings and see if perhaps you bump into something where you find peace beyond understanding, contentment despite life’s circumstances, and feelings od being free and having nothing to fear.
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Anyway Sylvia, I don’t presume to know what is next on your journey. I’m just kind of sharing from how things have evolved with me.
Also Sylvia, I have always found that be honest and real about your questions and pain is a helpful part of the journey. Being honest seems to keep me pointed in the direction of what is real.
Sylvia,
I’m thinking about you today, and will tomorrow as well. As Jim mentioned, I also think that ‘God’ or the concept of Him is a mystery. For me, that’s because I can’t figure Him out with my mind. I go in circles.
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I do have a connection with the deep feelings in my heart though, and often use them as my beacon for moving in the direction of what is Real. Just letting those feelings emerge. Perhaps there you might touch the One Love that your son spoke about.
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Peace!
Bottom line for me is that if God is love how can he send people to hell? I know the “answer” I was a very conservative Christian for 16 years. I think God IS Love and that love is inside of us and we give it to each other. Once we die…I have no clue what happens but I can’t buy the heaven/hell theory because its the opposite of Love.
Where do I start?
There was a recent post about “Losing my religion” and then a question of “Things we can learn from atheists” and mixed in with that was a link about the myths of mental illness.
I have understood for many years that there is an enormous difference between the Christian RELIGION and the Christian FAITH. I have been in touch with a number of atheists (and Christians who at one time considered atheism) and they have tended to convince me that the Christian RELIGION is just another one of the world’s religions – that is a poor reflection of the real Christian FAITH. I love what Don has written in the first response here.
In a sense I have been outside the walls of traditional Christianity for some 40 years and have had a lot of contact, especially over the last six years, with many committed Christians who have been drawn away from the churches that they may have attended for many years. I would describe many of these people as those who want to ‘go deeper’ but have realised that they can’t do that within the confines of organised religion – where you need to conform to the traditions and rituals of the denomination to which you belong!
It was about 14 years ago that I was forced into a position of reconsidering just about everything I had ever been taught. I had been caught up in a very legalistic church environment and it was in 1998 that I suddenly had the feeling of FREEDOM AND LIBERATION FROM THE SLAVERY OF LEGALISM, but it wasn’t until 2003 that I really became aware of what was then being called “the out of church Christians”. I have been in touch with leaders of the house church movement and I’ve been aware of the emergent / emerging church scene – but it continued to be a ‘wilderness experience’! This began to change after reading “The Shack” in the summer of 2007 when it was first published.
It was in the summer of 2008 that I discovered that I had lived with Aspergers Syndrome (sometimes known as High Functioning Autism) all my life. That was a real eye opener – it was EXCITING! Suddenly I had an awareness of why I was different. As I got to know more about AS the more I recognised as many “Aspies” do, that this is not an illness – it’s a set of characteristics that the majority of people just do not understand. (But please understand that I’m not referring to people who are unable to communicate with others because of what is commonly known as Autism).
They say that there is a book in each of us. Instead of writing a book I have developed a web site and a couple of blogs to tell the story of my journey through Christendom and the questions that I have wrestled with over the years. I’ve recently been able to ‘open up’ on “Divine Nobodies” and the depth of some of our sharing has been amazing. Suddenly I feel I really do have something to share but I have no idea where this might lead.
OK I’m 74 now, and a couple of years ago I stumbled on the suggestion that the best vision we could have is to have no vision of our own. Maybe I’m getting close to that now!
If anyone is interested in my story it begins on my blog.
i resonate with what Layla states about the IMO erroneous linearity between christian faith and hell (albeit often taught that way) and i also very much connect with what Old Pete pointed out in what for him is a difference between the christian ‘religion’ and christian ‘faith’.
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overall, however, i am generally taught far more by actually experiencing people – ideally in “real face-to-face time” ,and by what folks “do’ than what they (including me) “say”.
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to that end – last night at the gym – two of the lanes were occupied by a group of children with Down Syndrome and their coaches. they were running (with the most awkward looking gaits – arms just a flailing – grinning from ear to ear). they were learning to pass the baton to one another in relay form, but at times they just ran down the track holding hands. what appeared to be joy on their faces, was, to me, palpable.
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no words – no arguements – just me being given the gift of experiencing and being taught by others – up close and personal. it brought me joy and inner Resonance.
Sylvia, I read a story once upon a time about a couple who lost their 11 year old girl in a car accident. When asked how they were able to cope and enjoy life after loosing their daughter, they said they focused on being grateful for the 11 incredible years they had with their daughter. I don’t know if that will help you but it seemed practical.
Thanks everyone for your responses. You have all been so gracious and you have given me a lot to ponder.
Barbara your heaven/hell theory being the opposite of love sounds a lot like my sons belief. This is something he wrote about the “One Love”:
“I think I offer what I have freely because I believe that the One Love will never die as long as we all share what we can when we can- I have all I need, take it and pass it on. If I keep what I have to give with me, selfishly, the Love I have been given dies; if I share the Love with anyone that needs it, it lives .. even when I am gone… even when I have nothing left to give…
I guess that I have hope.
I hope”
I know this grief I feel will last me a lifetime, but I just hope I can share the One Love that Steven always tried to share.
Thanks again everyone.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart Cheryl, Jim, Jane, Jen, Vicky and all who have offered words from your hearts. I truly feel your love and embrace.
Jim i have read your books twice and I look forward to you next one.
Cheryl I was so glad you wrote in response to my cry for help. I was wondering if you would respond and what you would say. You certainly have a wonderful way of expressing your feelings. I would love for you to write a book. Every time you write on this blog I look forward to reading your wonderful, heartfelt words. You really have a way of connecting with my heart.
Much love to each of you
it seems to me that in my deepest times of pain – the “embrace” – virtual, physical, proximal is very important. feeling that someone else “gets’ it” – feels very important to me.
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and YET…. these are the same times when another person, for me – however loving, understanding or aware – somehow, hasn’t quite enough. I’ve watched this unfold, for example in greiving alongside my dad. I could hold him and be with him 24/7 and though my being with him and alongside him IS important – at some level – i had to come to accept that i could not love away his grief. And this caused my own grief to deepen – my own for my mom and perhaps even more ‘in my face’ – my grief for my dad and in the helplessness i felt. I DID need others – but i even needed something more than other people. I needed the Hope, the Essence – that I believe resides within but ALSO transcends other people.
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sometimes I wonder – am i becoming cynical and cold – a hardass? and yet, i absolutely KNOW that isn’t it. i feel too full of love to give, and too open to receive for that to be true. resignation closes – love opens. however, whether in a romantic, platonic, or professional way -I no longer expect another person to meet my deepest needs – either in my sorrow or for my joy. It’s like cheryl – in that other discussion the other day, when you described that ideal blissful love. there was a time when i thought that existed and sought that. i’m NOT saying it doesn’t exist. BUT, i now think that expecting that -or making that a goal, can cause more pressure between people than if we actually DID recognize our humanness and the limits of that (strengths/weaknesses/areas of blindness/etc) and made it all work within those limits – rather than idealizing one another (and i’m not saying you’re doing that or wanting that) If we work within the “non-bliss model” and intention to live with authenticity, integrity, humility, honesty etc re BOTH our areas of strength AND areas for growth opportunity – perhaps there would be fewer pedestals and more level ground to run and play upon – both in the intimacy of grief and sorrow; and in the intimacy of joy, play and laughter, not to mention the intimacy of the ordinary.
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I’m not saying that you are saying any of that – but when i read that blissful love stuff, i felt “pressure” – like – wow – how could “I” ever be ALL that any other person needed/wanted ME to be. impossible.
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and so, in times of hardship, sorrow or grief as well, I have come to embrace the love of others and yet recongize, in fact, the limits of it too. It makes me feel much less “demanding” – yet it is not a resignation at all – but rather a freedom.
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so i’m not sure how this all ties in – except to say that i think others ARE really important in my life – to love, to hold, to hang with, to talk with, to laugh with, to share. and yet, for me, I no longer expect my deepest needs to be met by another human – at least not in a sustained, expectatn way – either in joy or in sorrow. and that feels strangely extremely hopeful to me – opening me with an energy to love MORE – not less. I totally agree that the “fruit” in your analogy – whether of a religious or secular nature – i’ll just call it pat answers – never work. it’s like the Mom who loses a baby and another says – “well you’re young- you can have more”, or who miscarries and someone says, “well you know – he wasn’t even really a person yet”… hoping to help….GAWD – makes me wonder when i’ve last blown it myself with some lame repsonse to someone’s deepest pain .
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to love one another to the best of our ability, however, I agree, is never ever wrong – and certainly does unite us!!!
After listening to the videos on Things You Learn From Atheists, my most gut-level response was, “God, You were right!…the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil DOES bring “death”!
In the wisdom of man one truly cannot know God!
i guess what i was attempting to express was that, for me, problems can occur when “expectancy” and delight for the other in any sort of relationship, becomes “expectation” or a demand that a need be met. in freedom – i think intimacy is limitless.
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anyway……