Does God come through for you?
Jim November 19th, 2009
There’s something I’ve been wondering about. Here goes…
The theory is that we human beings our lacking. We all desire the same things – love, peace, freedom, acceptance, contentment, well-being, fulfillment, etc. But because we are lacking as human beings we are never going to be able to fully give these things to each other. For example, we can love one another but because our love is lacking as human beings this love is never going to be enough to satisfy our need and desire for love. Since we human beings are lacking, if we ever hope to get what we most deeply desire we must look outside our human interactions, relationships, and circumstances to find it.
Enter God. This is where God comes in. God is perfect, which means we can expect to get what we most deeply desire perfectly from God. God delivers perfect love, peace, acceptance, well-being, fulfillment, etc. God makes up the difference for what we can’t get from each other. Right? We might be able to get 40%, 60%, 80% of the good stuff from each other but we need God to get the 100%-proof good stuff.
So, humankind uses religion as the vehicle for accessing God for the good stuff. When we work the system and don’t get it, we give God the benefit of the doubt and assume there must be some higher purpose as to why this is or we find comfort that eventually we will get the good stuff in heaven when we die.
What worries me is that the above theory sometimes doesn’t seem to pan out in reality. I know too many people who hold the above theory, turn to God to make up the difference, and are still frustrated, unfulfilled, miserable people…waiting for heaven. Seeking what we desire through God has it’s own challenges since God cannot be seen or be present in concrete/human ways we are with each other. Getting what we want from God must come through an invisible/spiritual/subjective connection and interaction. I have a load of emails from people who are frustrated by not being able to get that connection/interaction to really work.
On the other hand, yesterday I was experiencing some deep emotional oain and stopped by to see a friend. He expressed love, acceptance, and understanding, and this helped me work through my pain. In a nutshell, I arrived on his doorstep in deep pain, and I left in a place of peace and freedom. It was all pretty simple but it worked. He didn’t magically take away my pain but our interaction allowed me to process my pain and let go of it in that moment. I’m not sure what else I could have hoped for. I didn’t leave wanting more.
So, my caveat would be as follows. I’m not questioning that people have satisfying and fulfilling interaction/connection with God. There are people who speak of having their deepest needs met through God. There’s no way my above description could summarize the endless number of different experiences people have with God. Who am I to question this?
Unfortunately, I have the tendency to press into issues that perhaps I should leave well enough alone. But as you know by now, I toss out a lot of issues for conversation that press the limits.
So, does God make up the difference for you? Does God consistently satisfy what you most deeply desire? How? Or is it the case that the pay-off seems relatively small compared to all the effort you put in? I’m not so much interested in knowing your theory/theology of what could be possible with God or what could happen if you tried harder or did things better with God. I want to know right now in reality, are you happy, content, free, fulfilled, at peace and satisfied because of God? Does that describe you today? Is that your reality? Whether it is or not I’d like to hear about it.
Also, are your human interactions and connections meaningful and satisfying? Do you experience love and acceptance amidst your connections and relationships with others? How much potential do these connections and interactions have? Could we be happier if we plummeted the possibilities of these connections and interactions further? Would it help if we truly understood that we were meant to be expressions of love, acceptance, understanding, compassion, etc. with each other? Like, what if we thought of our human connections, interactions, and relationships as the most sacred reality of life and living?
Is it possible that this is related to God, and that perhaps this was a central aspect of the significance of Jesus?
Just wondering…
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- Comments(14)
For example…
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How do you deal with deep emotional pain?
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Does God relate to your deep emotional pain? How? I know God is supposed to relate but I want to know for real how that works for you. Does it? Does God take away your deep emotional pain? Or??? What specifically does God do that helps you through depression, loneliness, hurt, emotional pain, etc..
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What about connecting with people – do you find it to be meaningful when you are struggling through heartache, hurt, pain, etc.?
Does God relate to my deep emotional pain?
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I dunno. I got and get past deep emotional pain by doing exactly what you describe with your friend yesterday: I process it.
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I spent several years learning to let go of pain enough to allow the process of processing to take place. I continue learning and practicing the process of processing so that pain subsides and I can then let it go.
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I’ve used the concept of God to say, Hey God, I invite you to flow through me today, guide my heart, guide my interactions so that what others experience through me is You. Sometimes I have said, oh gosh, this worrying is a waste of time. Here, God, I’m handing it over to you.
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I do this more easily and more intentionally (and hence, more often) now that I have discovered Wayne Dyer and the concept of detachment that he promotes.
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As far as God goes, I worry a little bit about the way I have redefined him, as in, have I condemned myself to Hell? As in, is God really what the Christians say He is?
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I avoid the personal father-god as much as possible and embrace the idea of a universal presence much more easily.
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I don’t want a personal father-god. It’s too ridiculous to think that the creator of all cares deeply for each and every human to the extent that he magically creates opportunities for one person by creating tragedy and terror and loss for another.
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I have learned to love connecting with people, and now intentionally develop connections and nurture relationships. Most heartache I feel is mine to deal with on my own. But I share with others a little bit, the intellectual part. And I have become able to listen when others share with me.
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This connecting with people is what it’s all about. I can the learn to honor them in ways that Christianity intellectually recognized but institutionally could/did/would not.
Hence the joy and satisfaction and fulfillment I get out of prison work. (See my latest post, shameless plug)
That’s me Jim. I tried, tried, tried, and then tried a little harder. I finally decided if I had to try that hard it wasn’t worth it. I poured myself into a “relationship” with God. Apparently, God doesn’t do relationships very well. Or at least he didn’t want one with me, or I wasn’t enough to move God to respond. I’m just being honest. When you get down to it, despite all the nice-sounding things I claimed about what God meant to me, God was conspicuously missing especially in those times of emotional pain as you described.
My relationships with people are where I most feel loved, accepted, and cared for. There are two relationships especially where I feel this. Frankly, it was easier having a “relationship” with God because it required very little risk and vulnerability on my part. I have found in my human relationships that I can’t really hide or protect myself. And yet, these risks and vulnerabilities have led to the kind of intimate relationship that I’ve always desired.
God becomes real to me in the faces of those who meet me where I am and love me without condition. I have experienced this love. It feels good. I like it. It impacts me.
In an eve.study at my church, we’ve been going thru L.Crabb’s “Soul Talk”. In it, he quotes Augustine, which I have paraphrased down even shorter to:
“God first, unto forgetfulness of self.”
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I have used this “mantra” to help me thru some emotional issues, and familial relationship issues, the past few weeks, and in doing so, I’ve noticed a lot less resentment and a lot more peace.
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It seems so obvious, at least for me, right now, that if we put Him first (and all else second), things (thoughts, emotions, feelings) work out “for good”.
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I’ve seen God do some amazing and unexpected and undeserving things for me lately, as I put Him first.
Jim said:
God is perfect, which means we can expect to get what we most deeply desire perfectly from God. God delivers perfect love, peace, acceptance, well-being, fulfillment, etc. God makes up the difference for what we can’t get from each other. Right?
I don’t think so! Isn’t one of the problems that we so often look to God for what we want, instead of opening ourselves up to God and allowing Him to do what He wants through us?
Jim goes on to say:
So, humankind uses religion as the vehicle for accessing God for the good stuff.
I have been suggesting for a long time now that for many people there is an enormous difference between the Christian RELIGION and the Christian FAITH. I was in discussion a few days ago when someone asked, “Is Christianity of God, or the ego …”
How often do we look to God to sort out our problems, instead of looking to God and asking what He wants us to do day by day in our own individual lives?
I hope you don’t mind Jim. You did say you press the limits sometimes, but this time I think you are asking the wrong question.
i guess what happened for me with this post was a few things;
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1) for reasons now sorted out – felt like it was not fully understood and i felt sad an frustrated to not have the benefit of a face to face two way conversation – versus 1-way ‘bit and bytes”. this simply reflecting limits to virtual communication…..
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2) the “percentage” thing left me feeling sick to my stomach. it wasn’t that i critique it being said, but rather was my inner experience in considering myself as viewing others in a percentage fashion of what they could offer me and what would be required elsewhere to make up the balance. i know this was not the intention – this was just my experience. i’m confident that there is nothing more valuable to me in life (and sacred) than that i love others and myself authentically and with honestly and integrity – at least to the best of my ability. it is not that i give the same amount of myself to all people – i think that would clearly be a boundary issue – but what i do give – i aim to give completely and openly.
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3) when i just started thinking objectively about what was being postulated – it seemed that the natural progression of reasoning seemed to evolve to shedding “god” -at least he seemed redundant in the equation. in the postulated line of reasoning – i’m not sure i see a ‘role’ for ‘god’…. and i think i understand the progression rick spoke about a few days ago. i think that if I don’t have a need for god and can get all of what I identify as my deepest needs met from within myself or others…. would there be anything wrong with simply naming that humanism? it seems to work for many.
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4) i identify with what susan spoke about and have had lots of experience screaming at god for being so deaf and impotent. complete and utter despair and anxiety. i did handstands and ran in circles…. i’ve covered that eslewhere. I’m no longer “trying”, but I am open to what i call a christian “faith” – as Old Pete pointed out….. i’m no longer trying to get the tail to wag the dog – with me being the tail. i have discovered within me a desire to embrace jesus as expression of god AND simultaneously to embrace mystery – the two for me are not mutually exclusive. despite this not being everyones’ way – i am very drawn to the mystics who testify passionately to what already hungers in my heart. there is – when all is distilled down – a faith – but one where i am increasing still and open.
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something about my entire perspective has been changing. I no longer feel as much a cry to God for “answers” or “direction” as much as for transformation and the desire to love more purely and freely. the mystics seemed to feel deep pain and suffering and yet seemed to find Something transcending it all. when i listen to them, i find them believable – far more than much of the ‘god-talk’ swirling about. – re what he said, did etc that served me no other purpose that to feel like a complete and utter failure that either God was rejecting me, OR i just couldn’t get the formula right – becoming overwhelmed with pain, anxiety and despair. i still haven’t reconciled the comfort part he seems to not live up to his word on that one though – insight an clarity, for me, does brings comfort. i don’t go for the just seeing God in people (and nothing for me in my own heart)…. i think then – why not just have the people by themselves and just honour them as ‘being’ – created or otherwise – who seem to want to give and receive this funny ‘love’ thing. like – is it molecular within us? did it evolve when we starting walking more upright , or perhaps around the time of the invention of fire or the wheel? or ultimately transcending us all? is it like a wisp of air?… does it die for us when we no longer need it to combat the pain of the world? why do we crave it and need it so deeply – unconditional, wild, fathomless, infinite . we are amazing, amazing, amazing. for me- i want to see god in people but also outside of them – in my own heart – the sort of thing that would still work stranded on a desert island or tossed into solitary confinement – like that woman in Left to Tell….
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anyway, that is just a bit of what has been swirling around in me that last 24 hours or so.
Does God come through for you? i realized later after the above soliloquy that i would like to look specficially at the questions jim asked. they feel like important questions.
So, does God make up the difference for you?
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for me this is a question like “so are you taking the bus to work or buying lunch”? the question, for me, doesn’t compute. I simply don’t know how to think about others or god in terms of percentages. sometimes people meet a need fully in the moment and i feel deeply connected. sometimes – the need i have isn’t met at all by another and i feel disappointment or sad. I don’t think i have ever experienced God meeting a need i think i have ‘in the moment’…. some of the needs i had 10 years ago and didnt’ know it – are evolving now (sure didn’t help then though).
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Does God consistently satisfy what you most deeply desire? How?
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hell no. funny thing – REALLY funny thing – is what I most deeply desired 5 years ago is not the same as it is now. sometimes what i think i most desire – isn’t yet the foundational desire. evolving awareness for me is a process – nothing instant from this corner!!!
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Or is it the case that the pay-off seems relatively small compared to all the effort you put in?
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for me the “payoff” NEVER came close to matching effort. but i just don’t see “faith” that way anymore. i think it is now meeting deeper needs than i was previously able to identify for myself – but sort of insidiously, quietly…. certainly no bells or whistles adorning this faith machine!! much of it, for me, comes in the form of insight about my inner world – new realizations about a motive, or a blindspot, or a joy – like watching the kids with Down Syndrome running this week. for example, also earlier this week – the following – without asking – landed upon my heart in desire form , “god, i’d far rather learn to ‘hear’ you for my transformation in love, than for direction”.. it was just a quiet a-ha moment for me that brought me life and a sense of centering. that would have never been a desire 5 years ago – heck probably not even a year ago. i didn’t seek it – it just -emerged within me somehow.
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i have experienced exactly ZERO linearity between what i feel i need in the moment and “provision” of that need – despite what i was taught: input need – output God’s response. “oh the ATM is now temporarily out of order…I must have pushed the wrong button.” ie caveat – i’ve understand and executed the formula correctly.
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right now in reality, are you happy, content, free, fulfilled, at peace and satisfied because of God? Does that describe you today? Is that your reality?
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not completely, and not completely because of God. i am progressing , it seems, in contentment, freedom and peace but yesterday, for example i felt pretty sad, felt relationally out of sync with someone, and hated my job. again – i don’t think inner transformation for me re those characteristics are linear or either all or nothing. but for me – without the Hope of God for all kinds of reasons – i would feel despair… so in that way…. i believe i am progressing because of Hope and Grace.
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Also, are your human interactions and connections meaningful and satisfying? Do you experience love and acceptance amidst your connections and relationships with others? How much potential do these connections and interactions have? Could we be happier if we plummeted the possibilities of these connections and interactions further?
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gotta remember that one cannot engineer mutuality and availability in others. I have a few very close friends and don’t try to have many. I have been blessed to develop incredible emotional intimacy with a few people over years. I have several friends that span 30 years. i personally feel that the potential for human intimacy between individuals is limitless – but “it don’t comes easy – ya know it don’t come easy”. from my perspective, this takes risk, energy, time and a fair bit of self-knowledge so that one is sharing who they really are – not just who they are trying to be, or who they think another wants/expects them to be.
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I tried to change a man once…… everyone should try this at least once in their life – followed quickly with poking one’s own eyes out. i later (much later) came to understand that I was trying to create this man in my own image – so that i could have a relationship with a puppet? like what??!??? I think my potential for intimacy is quite related to the degree of intimacy i’m capable of within myself – allowing me to be open to others – men, women or children – on THEIR turf – not mine…. all else seemingly engineering, manipulation and false intimacy… can’t last… eventually, the gig is up.
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Would it help if we truly understood that we were meant to be expressions of love, acceptance, understanding, compassion, etc. with each other? Like, what if we thought of our human connections, interactions, and relationships as the most sacred reality of life and living?
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i do think that. that doesn’t mean, however that mutuality or vulnerability from another is guaranteed – so one, i think needs to be prepared to be open – without demands or expectations of where another is…. so this is why it is vulnerable and risky business…to me, to truly respect , love and honour another is to honour where they are at.
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Jesus – i long for him to be the very fragrance of love right thru me to others. may it be so.
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jim’s further questions:
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i usually cry in response to any sort of emotional pain…. i may journal…..sometimes i try to escape it (tv – esp seinfeld or will&grace, sleep, etc). sometimes i talk it out with someone, but at other times – i don’t want to engage with another person and just prefer to sit sort of shell shocked. if i feel myself drowning , however, i try to reach out to another because when i feel like my heart is heard and understood and accepted, i feel deeply connected – even if the pain remains. feeling understood seems to take the ‘angst’ part away.
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sometimes i offer myself healthy detachment to gain some distance and hopefully perspective – by exercise or reading a good book – sort of “compartmentalizing” the pain for the moment rather than tryng to force resolution by my own timetable. i am learning to quit trying to control and figure everything out by trying to “think my way” out of pain. moreso now i rather just try to authentically touch and name my experience and allow any insight that is going to come, come in it’s own way and time.
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in my experience neither humans nor god offer formulaic or automatic or guaranteed eradication to pain… i try to discern when it is good for me to talk something out with another and when it is good for me to hold/embrace my own pain and lean into it in a way that asks god to “help” but without falling over. in my experience, however, this ‘help’ feels oblique and insidious, and not at all like i was taught to expect it, which has taken away some frustration of feeling like a failure for not doing the formula right to gain a response from god. on the other hand part of me wants a formula , because then i would ultimately be in control because i’d just have to figure it out and execute the formula properly. however, ultimately those days are done for me and i am thankful. “help’ for me, seems to come in the form of transformation and changed perspectives – but this is often FAR down the road from the pain event or season.
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religious platitudes don’t help me – and are more likley to just piss me off. perhaps for me, it is ultimately a seeking to connect with the Hope within me that “all will be well and all will be well and all manner of things will be well” (now some might consider THAT to be a religious platitude, but i hold significant some of what Julian of Norwich experienced and said, so i find it meaningful and hopeful for myself). –
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I will take any form of pain except despair. a feeling of despair leaves me impotent – lost – paralyzed – automotonish – nothing to give myself or anyone else. I HATE DESPAIR. i really, really hate it. for me, the antidote to despair is Hope…. but even then – not easily secured an yet good ole julian does help me here – because deep deep within me, i believe it.
Vicki,
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I deeply resonate with your reflections, here. I think Old Pete is also onto something about the way the question was framed.
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You have mentioned “linearity” several times in the last few posts, and I have increasingly come to similar conclusions. I deeply sympathise with Susan (and so would CS Lewis—A Grief Observed) about whether God “does relationships” very well but I wonder how we would “hear” him if we jettisoned the linear “quid pro quo” crap that we are all too prone to swallow when seeking “answers” from him.
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I’m convinced that God speaks but I believe he speaks into conscience or “heart” as often or perhaps much more often than he speaks into “mind.” Even that is too linear a distinction, I’m thinking. If he speaks through relationships and through his Creation and into conscience or heart as much or more than he speaks propositionally into “mind” (or by supplying our deepest heartfelt desires), then maybe the bigger problem is how we listen. What you said about how God had not “answered” things you thought you needed 5 or 1 year(s)ago in your journey (but not now) speaks volumes about a God who is fundamentally gracious and good:
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If he gave us what we thought we desperately needed but we were wrong, how would that be good (or hopeful or gracious, for that matter)?
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I don’t know…I’m coming more to feel that if I never got another thing I thought I desperately needed but got him instead, that would really be all. I do desperately want to be involved in what he is up to but all too often find myself first asking (pleading with? cajoling?) him to be more involved in what I am up to and fulfilling my dreams. As I more consistently look backwards after he didn’t “answer” (as you described) I am learning to see that he loved me more than I could have imagined at the time.
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How many times do I wake up “looking forward”, only to find at the end of the day I have “gone backward”?
I do experience God filling my deepest needs on a regular basis. I don’t have time tonight to expand on that a lot, but it is possible. I believe this is what He desires to do for each of us. That certainly does not mean that He solves all my problems and makes all my relationships perfect. Far from it. He meets me in the tired, lonely places and exchanges all my crap for His love, joy and peace. I’m growing in this but I believe the mystics like Brother Lawrence have the right approach. But it’s been a very painful 15 year journey to get even where I am today, and I know I have a long way to go.
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I’ll try to post more over the next couple of days. For now let me say that a guy in Texas named Rod Pruitt (www.rodpruitt.com) is teaching this as well as anyone I’ve come across lately. I also have been significantly impacted by Mark Virkler’s teaching on hearing God (www.cwgministries.org) and Ed Smith’s teaching on growing through pain (www.theophostic.org).
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Don’t give up on God. He is that personal and He does want to fill us up. I believe this with all my heart. I don’t think we will ever walk in freedom until we go to Him as our Source of Life, refreshment, consolation, healing, provision, satisfaction…
I try to start each day meditating on the presence of God in my heart. My attempt is to get out of my head and into my heart and to commune with God there. When I am able to focus on Him there I sense peace and contentment in a very deep and real way. That does not mean my exterior life is ideal. I have difficult circumstances just as others do.
has Down Syndrome and had to have a very difficult open heart surgery when he was 3 months old. I had a major failure in a project in the corporate world. And I live in a marriage that is good now, but certainly has been a struggle at times. If I expect my needs for worth, love, affection, appreciation and respect to be met there I would be miserable and possibly divorced. I’ve lived in full time counseling ministry for the last few years. My income dried up in 2008 and I’ve lived 2009 with almost no income. Savings are getting low. There is a promise of income from investment that has been promised and delayed now multiple times. This can create much stress and anxiety if I focus on it instead of on God.
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I don’t always live this way. I’m as tempted to worry, lust, fear, pride, etc. as anyone else. Even as I write this I’m struggling because it sounds so much like pride and self-righteousness that I don’t know if I’ll actually post it or not.
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This has been a very painful and difficult 15 year journey for me. I have experienced many difficult circumstances in that time. Since becoming a Christian in 1995 I’ve walked through the deaths of a very close friend, a younger brother, my mother, my father, both my wife’s parents, and the parents of my best friend who were very dear to me. We experienced a miscarriage. We have two beautiful sons. The older (now 10) is borderline ADHD. The younger (now almost
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I don’t list this to get sympathy. As I read the 9 posts prior to mine I hear people some of which are experiencing emotional pain, so I felt the need to share some of my journey to put my current dependence on God in the context of emotional pain.
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There is nothing wrong with desires. I desire many things. But if I allow those to reach the level of expectation then I have moved to a place where I’m at risk. Unmet expectiation is the source of much (if not most) of my emotional pain. Pain at the death of a loved one is difficult, but that is normal. To struggle daily because some person does not come through for me in the way I think they should is a problem I must explore with God.
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It is my purpose in the Holy Spirit to expect refreshment, satisfaction, nourishment, consolation, provision, encouragement, direction, protection, fruitfulness, fulfillment…(Everything good) from God, and only from God. Any blessings added to that from others I welcome, but I hope to only have expectations of Him.
Out of that fullness that He graces me with I hope to bless those around me regardless of whether they return it or not.
None of this can be done through my strength, but Christ in me can do these and more through me as I allow Him.
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If this sounds arrogant, I’m sorry. But after reading the other posts I feel very strongly that I needed to speak up with my experience. Emotional pain can lead to inner transformation. Inner transformation can lead to new levels of dependency and intimacy with God. Intimacy with God leads to Life. I’ve found no other reliable source for Life.
dan,
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i am not sure how you could see yourself coming across as arrogant. it sounds like you have felt risk in sharing (as i do too at times) and for me, as I read part of your story, I just desired to “hold” it as sacred.
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i hope you did not hear in my entries that i have no “hope in God”…. contrarily, i simply have no hope in linearity, formulae, anything automatic – i’ve sort of “been there/done that” … i just started a book in fact called The Misunderstood God and I could not believe how much I identified with the first few pages. i hope that anything you may have heard from my posts was real openness to hope, ongoing transformation , often due to personal pain, and a real difference re others/god between “expectancy” and “expectation”. Expectation, for me – seems co-joined in my heart at some level to a demandingness and desire for control,(when i am ruthlessly honest with myself), whereas “expectancy” seems to open me up tio a place of willingness, hope, adventure – even though admittedly, to more feeings of vulnerability as well. for me, i only tried to convey that if i feel sad, depressed, anxious, pissed off etc – “going to God”, in my experience has not been a quick or automatic “fix”. In my experience, it is all more longitudinal than that – perhaps more of a looking back over my shoulder over time. However, i am fairly new to “letting go”….because of the deeply entrenched fear that I have to “get it right” – first. I connect with your words of opening to God in my heart – but this meant i had to take the risk of letting go of an entrenched sense that I FIRST had to “do it right” – line up my proverbial ducks in a theologically correct row – much of which, i was, frankly, taught to do.
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so, for me, i am unlearning so that when i do sit quietly – in expectancy, but without “expectation” – i can truly be open , without focus on myself and my “performance”…. this is why i personsonally am so drawn to the mystics. I am learnign to hold the “tension” of being open to “plummet the limitless depths” of intimacy with others, without that becoming a source of “expectation” for me. it is, i find, a hard line to walk, and i am certainly not always successful in that. However leaning all my weight in “hope” on anything potentially shifting – be it circumstances, relationships, etc, does end up seeming to make it about “me” and my needs – rather than in abandoning myself to life and to others – even though i recognize that there is nothing wrong with my human needs or my humanness. I increasingly experience that life is not black and white and is often a holding the tension of seemingly opposite things.
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dan, for me, i really appreciated being able to hear some of your story.
Vicki, thanks for the encouragement. I’m all over the “unlearning.” All the religious approaches to God just left me in more pain and distress than where I started. I still felt terrible but now had guilt for not getting it right piled on top. Just sitting in His presence silently changes everything for me.
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I used to wake up early or sometimes in the middle of the night and my mind would get going. It wasn’t always bad thought, but it would keep me awake. Now I’ve found that just focusing on His presence puts me right back to sleep. My mind would keep me awake; my heart brings peace and rest. That sounds like the Gospel to me.
dan, i am very encouraged by your gentle realness. thank you.