trying to figure IT out
Jim November 27th, 2009
Can we just be honest here? You want something out of all this God stuff. What is it?
Why are you seeking truth? What are you hoping that “getting it” means for you and your life? When you “get it” what exactly do you imagine happening or what would you like to happen? What is your motivation for trying to figure it out, be enlightened, and know the truth? If all goes well, what does it look like exactly? What would change? What do you envision would be different about you and your life? What is the outcome you are wanting? For example, are you hoping to achieve some sort of permanent state of being – perpetual happiness, the absence of pain, better life circumstances? What?
Is there some universal result or outcome you imagine would kick in for everyone, if we all got it? If so, what is that universal outcome? Describe it specifically. What would change and be different if we all got it?
Can anyone nail down what exactly is the key element for everyone to “get.” And then can people describe the reality that emerges as a result of getting it? Let’s try and demystify “IT.” Yes, I realize that people feel truth can’t fully be grasped by the mind. But for the sake of this post, let’s try and put as much concrete and practical discussion to it as possible. What would “getting it” mean in your walking-around daily human life? Or, would getting it pull you into some other world? And if so, how do those two worlds work together or simultaneously? Let’s avoid abstract and religious lingo as much as possible. Let’s just do it in plain English that any person regardless of their religious background would understand.
I know this is a lot to ask in one post but…
What does “getting it” mean?
What’s the evidence of or outcome of getting it?
What hopes and desires and motivations do we attach to getting it?
What prevents us from getting it?
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Is there an “it” at all? Is “it” something we have conjured up – the elusive “it” that we never quite achieve?
Is there an alternative to seeking an “it?” If so, what would that be?
Can you live without an “it?”
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- Comments(39)
Reality. What is. I believe that underlying all I see is something, someOne, I’ve come to know as God. This God has been revealed to me, in Christ — to the best of my understanding — as Love. So, to repeat, I want is to know and live in Reality.
Right now I’m distracted most of the time by petty stuff. Sometimes I’m attached to things that fit my idea of “good” or “best.” (Some things really are quite good, I think. I don’t think it’s wrong to enjoy the taste of sweet success, or Thai curry or pasta with 40 cloves of garlic in the sauce. Who wouldn’t? Honestly, I think the “best of times” and the “worst of times” point to something more wonderful than I’ve imagined yet. I want to dive in deeply. What I don’t want is to waste my time with meaningless busy-ness, playing with words and mere images (I’m a photographer, and words themselves are images/symbols).
I always come back to “fear is the opposite of love” and “perfect love drives out fear.” When I don’t know up from down, I can at least ask whether it’s fear or love guiding me in this moment.
I want true Joy. The peace that passes all understanding. Thats what I want from all this God stuff. To walk through this storm that is life and not feel afraid because i know that there is this ONE thing in life I can count on who will NEVER let me down. This thing I can count on that reflects the love that i understand and crave deep down in me, that this thing reflects that love and is perfect in it. Thats what I want out of all this God stuff. I don’t know what “it” is however that is supposed to get me to that place. Often I think it is much simpler than I make it out to be.
I get frustrated when “it” becomes this complex belief system in some specific entity or system. All the ins and outs and whys and hows get me confused and distracted. The one thing i “get” is love. And I get it in the sense that I want it because that “it” is the key to living a good life. Everything opposite of this “it” brings me toward a life that is not good it seems. Something subpar. At least that is what I have been told. Is that even the case?
If I could just focus on this it, and getting to this deep feeling of peace and joy i have experienced from God at times in my life, than I think I could live that good life I want to live. But then, all the questions of consciousness, jesus christ, evolution, etc. comes up and everything gets very fuzzy. Does that make sense? I start trying to figure out the mechanics of how it all works and why. From there its a downward spiral into thought until I’m left with pure confusion and frustration. to the point now where I am questioning all this love stuff to.
Those who “get it” are menschs.
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They’d give someone’s car a jump, if asked — even if their owner’s manual said it is not the best thing for their own vehicle. They leave the last piece of cake for someone else. They gas up the car for their spouses. They’re good to their word.
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By and large, they follow the golden rule.
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Menschs.
Mike wants: joy, peace, the absence of fear, and perfect love.
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Mike refers to and desires this reality as: “one thing in life i can count on who will never let him down,” “a place,” “a good life,” and “deep feelings.”
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So, what Mike wants seems to have the following characteristics:
1. it’s permanent – something he can count on and never let’s him down;
2. a place – a state of being carried through all of life
3. deep feelings that don’t come and go but remain/last
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Some questions/thoughts popped into my mind. Not just for Mike but anyone:
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If God is “perfect” than it only stands to reason that God would deliver this “good life” to us. So, the problem must be on the receiving end. God isn’t screwing up, we are! Right? But, it seems that no person in all of human history has ever had this “good life” perfectly, even Jesus? Jesus experienced fear, hurt, rejection, etc. Maybe this “peace beyond understanding” isn’t the absence of fear, hurt, rejection, etc.
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Is the “good life” a state of being where you have good feelings (or the absence of bad feelings) continuously? Is that even possible? If not, why do we hold it as something to achieve or hope for or the standard for “getting it.”
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How much does the good life depend on us, and how much of it is a matter of something someone else (i.e. God) does? Can we choose the good life whenever we want to? Are we dependent upon something/someone outside ourselves in order to experience what we most deeply desire? Does the good life naturally happen in the ebb and flow of daily existence if we are open to it and abandon ourselves more fully to it, as opposed to holding out for something better in theory or after we die?
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What exactly do we want God to do? Eradicate all the bad feelings and help us have only good feelings (peace, joy, love)? How exactly would God do this?
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that’s all for now
I think we’re all looking for ‘it’ because we know something is missing. And yet ‘it’ is the same for all of us, and different too – it’s the same in that its that piece missing or untapped or whatever, but different in what that ‘it’ is. I think ‘it’ can be different for all of us. We all connect here with Jim on his blog because of a continual thread that connects us all – not sure what that is but could be as simple as a history of believing in God / Love, but all done and tired with ‘religion’ – and that might connect us, but why do we keep coming back here? Maybe to find ‘it’? To find that one piece of truth that will make it all make sense. ‘It’ for me is to stop searching for that missing piece, and just enjoy my life – to just chill out and be at peace with whatever shakes out. And as I say what ‘it’ is for me I wonder if we all want it all to be ‘all right’ – and if that place of ‘all right’ is a place of Love… so maybe ‘it’ for as many angles as there may be always comes back to true Love.
I don’t think I necessarily want God to eradicate all “bad” feelings. I know Christ experienced pain, but in the end he conquered it. Every bit of it. He didn’t stop and live there (dwell in it). He experienced pain in the garden but in the end he chose the will of God, and found the strength to continue. Where did/does this strength come from? Did it come from Christ internally, or did God somehow “help” him in some way, give him “grace”? Like you said, maybe it is indeed on the receiving in we miss it. But is it ALL on the receiving end? Maybe it’s just a matter of finally facing the pain we go through with a bit more tenacity and overcoming it every time it comes up. But where does god play a role in this. If it was only on the receiving end, why would i need god? Obviously I am limited. I guess its the whole “do your best and god will do the rest” type of thing? What is my part? What is His?
Of all the questions Jim asked in the post, this one stood out to me “why are you seeking truth”? I have thought long and hard about this over the years and have come to the conclusion that it’s actually Truth Himself seeking me and my seeking is only some minor stimuli/response to His continual (and mysterious) beckoning from within. He is the Initiator and I am merely the responder. (Isnt this also how it worked w/Abraham?)
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This Initiator feels like Love to me, the voice is gentle, loving, affirming thereby making Him quite irresistable, easy to want to follow. I somehow know (intuitively) that this Voice is trustworthy, is true although my following is still wayard at times as I occasionally live “detached” from my heart and invariably wander into some barren, lifeless desert region for a season until this mysterious Initaitor once again faithfully leads me back “home”. The more I follow, the louder the Voice seems to get, the easier it is to “hear” that One Voice above all the other voices that continually vie for my attention (loyalty, heartfire).
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So in summary, I seek for truth in response to Truth seeking after me and sensing Truth & Love to be one & the same (Truth/Love) would have me (utterly) free because freedom is the original soil and ground of my (true) being. Where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. I seek that freedom, that Presence, that Truth which is Love Itself.
TC wrote: ‘It’ for me is to stop searching for that missing piece, and just enjoy my life – to just chill out and be at peace with whatever shakes out.
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So, the thoughts that came to mind are as follows…
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Maybe there is no missing piece. Maybe we have been falsely led into believing there is a missing piece. We assume there is something we don’t get or understand, something we are lacking, something we are not doing or not doing well enough or not doing enough of, some great truth we have yet to come upon or understand, some divine download that magically changes everything. But maybe there isn’t. Maybe all the seeking, searching, striving, analyzing, etc. is just a big distraction and drain, and is never going to get us any closer to what we want and desire. Maybe we should stop seeking and searching.
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What would the alternative be?
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- To let go of the idea that there is a missing piece.
- To believe that what you desire most is to be found in your daily life as it currently exists.
- To re-direct your seeking/searching energy into plummeting the depths and possibilities of the people, places, and things in your life.
- To stop feeding the mind’s futile preoccupations, and to listen/follow what you feel most deeply inside.
- Acceptance of the totality of life and human existence as the proper venue for limitless joy and fulfillment. For example, all of life is either: giving or receiving love; giving or receiving acceptance; giving or receiving care and compassion; giving or receiving enjoyment. Or seeing the totality of life as opportunities to choose love, peace, kindness, joy.
- Accepting that feelings such as sadness, hurt, loneliness, emptiness, anger, etc. are a natural and useful/helpful part of a range of feelings associated with human existence, and are never eliminated entirely.
OK Jim I’ll rise to your challenge and try and be as frank as I can! My comments are based on what I have gleaned through personal experience over the years. I have made a single minded mission over the latter part of my life to try and uncover the realities, or not, of this “missing” state of being that many of you are seeking. I guess you have all felt that there is a “better place” of peace, love and freedom that we can hang out in – somewhere? But where? I feel like a worn out old “Abraham” after hunting it out but I think I have the answers you need!
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It just so happened that our (Robin and me) physical circumstances have played into our hands where it has made it relatively easy for us to follow this trail. We’ve had a number of advantages, including never having the “God” hangups that many of you have had to battle through where understandings have been laid on you that are so wrong and false. We were naturally freer so when a “knowing” came up we just went there – Robin timidly following along behind at times!
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Firstly “IT” is for real! There is no doubt about that! We need to go there and I think the time is now right for us to do that. There are a number of you who appear to have come to the end of most options and are wondering where else can we go? The invitations have gone out and I see some of you are responding and that’s all that is required for starters.
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Secondly we will discover that there is a big diffence between “understanding” and “knowing”. The first – understanding – is thin but the “knowing” is fat (solid)! When we try and apply “understanding” too rigously to something that we feel we “know” deep down (even if it is only a very vague “knowing”) we stuff it up. That type of thinking process puts boundaries around our “knowing” because we automatically try to fit this “understanding” into the parameters of this present world system. An example of that is how religious thinking has placed this “IT” realm (heaven) in an unreachable locality up in the sky that we can only access (if we qualify) after we die. By taking this thinking on board we have inadvertently turned a “living” knowing place, that we can visit now, into a dead doctrine or belief system that has no power. The only way we can get the true “understanding” is to go there first and experience it for ourselves. Then we understand! We have never been encouraged to do this and instead told to follow the so called head understandings, which from what I have seen, are mostly the wrong way around anyway!
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So that is what I have been trying to do these past 35 years – ever since I first got woken up! “Listen” for the feelings first, then go there and experience them. Next, if you wish, confirm through the words of JC (which will appear to have been completely re-written!) and then you have the TRUE understanding. BUT, although we now have the understanding we should always endevour to live and speak from the “knowing” (NOT the mental understanding) and that’s where we need each other to help us all to keep on track.
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It took me a few years to sort out the difference. For instance, in the early days when faith was high, we had many people coming to us for help. Someone, who you had never met before, could timidly knock at the door and a poor miserable down-trodden face would appear. As I moved over to welcome them I’d feel a deep welling up from within (you’d feel it within them too) and I’d throw my arms around them and tell them that they would be OK. They’d be instantly healed. Next time someone came I’d get up and repeat the same thing because the last time that “system” worked. But not this time! Same words, same actions but as you can probably guess – it was from the wrong source. “Me” versus “Him”. Me does not work so well! You’ll all go through similar experiences. The main thing is not to be frightened to give this a try. Be bold and you’ll get some surprises.
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So what is “IT”? “IT” is a dimension where nothing is impossible. You still have your love and your joy that many of you are trying to latch onto but it’s far away and beyond anything that we could ever get to work in this man made system. That is really only the beginning anyway! There is a whole new dimension of life waiting for us. No more sickness and pain, no more death – living forever – and a world that is so beautiful it’s indescribable – glimmering irradescent colours. We can get our loved ones back too! Where there is a love connection nothing is impossible. I don’t know just what the “physical” outcome of all this is – we have only just touched the fringes. All we know is that it’s there for us all. Let’s go and explore.
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That “knowing” we spoke about is actually the “biblical” faith that many have tried to define. The lack of this is what has been holding us all back. Faith is that deep expectation of something wonderful and when we speak from there things happen. Many of you will be light on faith at present so you can lean on me for a while until you get yourselves going. That’s what I can offer you.
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“When the son of man (son of ourselves) comes will he find faith on earth?” The answer to that is, “Very, very little!”
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So no more worrying about people not listening to you and responding in the way you would like them to. No more looking for sympathy and recognition from others. That can’t fix things. You can have the real thing direct and that will raise up your standing and self worth beyond anything you could ever imagine! Then you’ll realize just how much you are loved!
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Jim cannot take you there. No human being can. Some of you will have to release Jim as your guru and begin to trust yourselves and I can help you if you are willing. He’s done a great job getting you all as far as he has and this has helped you immensely to free up and open up to one another. Jim’s five point plan cannot do the trick and straighten out this world. We now need to move to the real one within “us” who can. And it’s not that make believe one you have been trying to follow either. This one you’ll meet has real power and I think it’s now his time to reveal himself.
I think it’s really simple. “IT” IMHO, is peace. No one can attain it for you. That’s why the TC is struggling because we don’t have to be responsible for our own spiritual lives. And we don’t have peace because we are using someone else’s opinion to attempt to shape our own heart. Until I took my own spiritual life by the horns, I was always miserable underneath it all. There was a nagging, gnawing freeling in my core that there just had to be more. Other wise, this fantastic story was just that, a story.
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One thing I’ve found is the most peace comes when I live in the “now.” Since my Mom died, to be honest, I’ve always been slightly intuitive about “future” events and it’s gone. Just poof! My radar is gone and I have felt very lost and unsure about my new skin. So, I was talking with Roger and he said maybe it’s because I am living “now.” Hmmm.. Food for thought for certain and it made sense to me. As a kid I developed coping mechanisms and I think honestly looking forward to something has always kept me going or fantasizing about what’s to come or what could come. I have nothing to look forward to because it doesn’t exhist. Living now is different. And to me, this is “IT.” It’s a quiet place, a peaceful place and I’ve never been here before.. Don’t get me wrong, I am aware of this stuff and it doesn’t mean I am perfect by any means.. Just conscious…
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Hope this makes sense… And Jim, I love you, but you aren’t my guru!
Just for the record Trish, I never asked and wanted to be anyone’s guru
Not what I signed up for, not interested, nada! I’m happy being nobody Jim, remaining open to however the journey unfolds like all of us.
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Brian, referring to my comment a “five point plan” is giving me way too much credit. It was simply what rolled into my mind in that moment as I thought about the way I live my life day by day…believing that “God’s kingdom” has come, is fully available and accessible in the midst of my human walking-around life, and that nothing else needs to happen or change in order for this to be so.
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One of the most helpful things for me was letting go of the religious logic that for so long framed my life. Here are a few elements of that logic:
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1. There is some blissful reality/world/dimension somewhere out there over the rainbow.
2. That blissful reality/world/dimension cannot be located in my present human venue.
3. I must acquire special knowledge, abilities, and capacities in order to tap this other blissful reality.
4. If I can’t tap that blissful reality, it’s because i don’t get it and need to do something different or try harder or give up.
5. Only a few people find that blissful reality but it remains hidden to the masses, which makes for guru’s and disciples.
6. I must disengage from my human venue and devalue my human experience in order to fully engage the blissful reality.
7. The blissful reality requires cooperation and change on a mass scale in order for it to fully unfold.
8. The blissful reality remains elusive, and there’s twice the seeking as there is the finding.
9. The blissful reality sets itself against or in opposition to our present human existence, and you must choose the one over the other.
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And yet what I see in Jesus is:
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1. The joining of the “divine” and the “human” as one. You don’t separate the “divine” from the “human” in order to find the “divine.” The two are not in opposition to each other. The one doesn’t threaten or diminish the other.
2. The kingdom “on earth as it is in heaven.” In other words, the “kingdom” is a present reality to be touched and experienced right here and right now in the context of the people, places, and things of our lives. Maybe your antenna is turned off and you’re not picking up the signal. You don’t need to check-out of this world, you need to check-in to it. The problem isn’t that you are too attached to the world, it’s that you are not attached enough! Jesus said, “Quit trying to find me up in the sky. Look for me in the faces of the people of your life.”
3. According to Jesus “the kingdom is within us.” Nothing needs to change, nothing needs to be different, no special knowledge is required, no special capacities are needed. The best teachers are children because they tend to live freely, spontaneously and open-heartedly in the moment. No child has a mental understanding of a “knowing place,” or a “new and different world,” or some other “realm,” etc.
4. Jesus did not encourage people to check-out of this world as a way of accessing the kingdom. He related the kingdom to very human things like loving each other – to love one another is to love “God”…”God” is to be found/experienced in loving each other. Not being “of this world” had more to do with refusing the mentality that separates, divides, judges, hates people. Jesus would not allow the religious or cultural boxes to define or limit his kingdom, which has no limits.
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Sometimes I feel like religion wants to gin up magical thinking that appeals to the part of us that would prefer to check out of our present reality in hopes of finding something else. Why would we have a human existence if the idea was to check out of it? Instead of exploring some other world, maybe we could re-open the book on this one. Maybe we think we know. Maybe we don’t.
Plato’s Cave Analogy
Plato used the analogy of the cave to illustrate his idea of forms. The analogy goes like this:
Imagine several prisoners who have been chained up in a cave for all of their lives. They have never been outside the cave. They face a wall in the cave and they can never look at the entrance of the cave. Sometimes animals, birds, people, or other objects pass by the entrance of the cave casting a shadow on the wall inside the cave. The prisoners see the shadows on the wall and mistakenly view the shadows as reality.
However, one man breaks free from his chains and runs out of the cave. For the first time, he sees the real world and now knows that it is far beyond the shadows he had been seeing. He sees real birds and animals, not just shadows of birds and animals.
This man is excited about what he sees and he goes back to his fellow prisoners in the cave to tell them about the real world. But to his astonishment, they don’t believe him. In fact, they are angry with him. They say the shadows are reality and that the escaped prisoner is crazy for saying otherwise.
POINT OF THE CAVE ANALOGY: According to Plato, the world outside the cave represents the world of forms while the shadows on the wall represent objects in the physical world. The escape of the prisoner represents philosophical enlightenment and the realization that forms are the true reality. Most people are like the prisoners in the cave. They think the shadows are reality. Philosophers, though, are like the man who escapes the cave and sees the real world. They have true knowledge.
I love Plato’s analogy, it is much like Brian and Audrey trying to share something that seems impossible to the common mind of man.
“IT” is our human ability to choose which is an act of the will not an act of the mind. Though difficult & against the grain, through choice, we can experience all the characteristics and attributes we desire and attribute to “God” no matter the situation or circumstance.
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This morning @ my bros christian church they say a song w/ the lyrics “you’re all I need” & thought folks were attaching ‘God’ to the things they desire for their life like freedom, acceptance, peace & love. So they were really saying those characteristics & attributes were ‘all’ they need. To me, it seems like they are missing out on their inherent ability to choose those those things by seeking them ‘though’ god. Others seek them through other people, circumstances, accomplishments or situations which means they’ll spend their time & energy seeking out those people & circumstances rather than depending on their own ability to chose them no matter their circumstances or the people in their life.
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Seeking a world without suffering & death is an exercise in vanity. To think some supreme being put in place a system that requires humans to somehow ‘get it’ which brings miracles, the absence of death and pain is fairy tale. Folks have talked about that & tried in various ways, including Brian’s way for 1000’s of years and we’re supposed to all of a sudden ‘get it’ now?
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Exercising our ability to choose is immediate and isn’t up for debate…it’s something we should teach our kids @ home & in schools.
There is no all in IT Rick, and there is no sudden in IT, but there is the truth in it, and we dont need to teach our children that, because they as you were born with IT.
Jim and Brian,
I think you are both right! From my experiences God’s Kingdom is both “the already” and “the not yet”. In the last few years i have experienced what I can only explain as going through “the tear in the membrane” into a dimension where I felt completely loved and accepted just as I am. But it is also true that in the midst of my human walkiing-around life (to paraphrase Jim) I have felt the same love and acceptance just feeling god’s presence inside of me. I want to keep walking on the ground with Jesus because this is where I can let my light shine and give to others what I have been given. One experience is not better than the other and shouldn’t set itself against or in opposition to the other because both come from the same source. Sometimes I am given a token of what is to come, but I live in the here and now, and desire to live in that place to the full.
Neither of you are gurus, but you both have enriched my life.
Thank you,
Suzanne
Thanks for your little gems of wisdom Doug – very timely. Even Plato “saw” there was another dimension but would have had difficulty describing “IT” or realizing its significance. “IT” has been around since Adam was a cowboy. Most of the people on this blog would have touched “IT” at various stages of their lives but because of a lack of faith (and religious confusion) would not have realized the potential that could emerge if they followed it deeper.
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Rick by taking the stand that he has qualifies him for the casual remark JC made where “because he thinks he sees he is blind and to actually “see” he needs to become blind!” We’ve all been there Rick! You are probably going through a relatively uplifting period in your life and things are sweet but it doesn’t always stay that way.
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And as I said before folks Jim cannot help take you there because he hasn’t experienced it for himself – so how can he? He’s flying blind too and it looks as though he has set things up (again!) so you can all embark for another journey around and around the mulberry bush. Best of luck!
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So what we are looking for are a handful of people who are willing to open their hearts, and Audrey and I will see if we can help put you in contact with the one who can take you there. That’s all that is necessary. Just a humble open and willing heart. I know there are some there.
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In spite of what many may think Jesus was very much his own person. How could he have “only done what I see my Father doing” if he was hooked into other people and felt obligated to go along with their thinking. That’s what trips us up – our linkage, on the heady level, with others. We can’t be ourselves because we feel obligated to play up to them. That’s why church kept tripping you all up. You were under a human leadership that wouldn’t let you go. You were obligated to a certain form of thinking to maintain a common unity. But getting free from religion is not the answer as religion is just another function of the “world” package. I know some of you feel freer and are trying to flex your muscles but getting locked into a “no-bodies” mentality will in the end be just as binding. Adherance to that puts a layer over our hearts and makes us blind.
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So do Jim and Rick think I am lying when I say I have seen a bit of “IT”. Do they think I am lying when I say it is for real and is wide open for us to go to if we changed our attitudes. Rick has made his position clear, that’s fine, but Jim hasn’t even acknowleged my tirade over “IT”. Do you think Audrey and I are lying Jim? Yes or no?
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What we are attempting to do is help wrest our minds away from the dominating obligation we feel towads others to being primarily obligated to that ONE OTHER deep within. THEN we can truly help our friends. At present we are powerless. Simply sticking on band aids and when the winds start blowing and the rain begins to belt down we’ll find the foundations of that “house” will fall down and us with it.
Suzanne e. Nice letter. No I don’t think Jim or I want to be gurus? I have spent a life time staying well clear of that. There’s too much resposibility!
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The problem is other people. When you write books or set up web blogs and people home in they can put you on a pedestal and you become a guru whether you like it or not. Look how people worship celebs and they are simply human beings with the same frailtys and deep longings as you and me?
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So that is the problem here. This following of admirers locks Jim up because he will find it difficult to relate freely and “evenly” (from the spirit) towards us all – and they to him. He/we will favour those who fuss over him and tend to reject others who he/we feel may be challenging him. That’s just the way it is and on that level it is unavoidable. To overcome this we do have to open our hearts big time (the circumsized heart) and help each other to get through this. Things cannot happen unless we do.
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Can we do this?
I dont think anyone is trying to tell anyone they can suddenly feel the full love of god. As a matter of fact i think we we did it would put our pitiful little minds in an insane state, but we can touch it, and let it grow, but it starts with the denil of the mind telling you that you cant.
susanne you said, One experience is not better than the other and shouldn’t set itself against or in opposition to the other because both come from the same source.
There is only one experience that is better than another, and its the one that lets you feel the true love of God.
Walk passed the shadows of your mind, and trust the truth you really feel.
The question as stated is presumptuous in one respect. It leads the witness to answer the question by coming up with a “value add”. What if, instead of the “value add” business, the shingle that Jesus Christ puts up on the street corner is the “death and resurrection” business?
Until I have come to the end of myself and died with Him, these questions, and the answers we crave, aren’t meaningless … just terribly out of context.
Then your saying we are unworthy of knowing him until we shed this human shell, and i say we can do it as we wear it, be cause we walk this life time in his image, Stephen.
Doug,
Perhaps in His eyes we have shed this human shell already. We just don’t see it and therefore don’t believe it. Our “worthiness” is a can of worms beyond the scope of this night for me. Sorry.
Brian and Doug,
When I go feed the poor or pray for or comfort someone in need, I feel Love and I would say this is “IT”. When I read the words of JC with new eyes and I am overwhelmed with Love, I would say this is “IT”. When I love my husband,my children my grandchildren and feel this incredible sensation wash alll over me, I would say this is “IT”. And as I mentioned before, when I have those “tear in the membrane” experience when it seems I am climbing out of this realm into one that for lack of a better word I would call a “heavenly” realm that is also “IT”. All of these experiences for me are all a part of “IT”. Yes, sometimes I do feel Brian that I am just touching the fringes. I do want to explore more and experience to the fullest. But I also want to love my neighbor as myself more as well. I want all that Love has for me…
Hey Brian, I could quote scripture to identify you as a serpent, idiot or apostle but that’s the problem with scripture ‘it’ is open to interpretation isn’t it? I’m being frank with my position but I’m certainly not dogmatic (a bit firm maybe ;-p) nor am I closed minded.
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I don’t know what to do with your experiences, nor do I know what to do with Jesus’ or the miracles in any sacred text. They do beg the question ‘why’ for me. Why is your/the so called ’simple’ so unbelievable, infrequent and contrary to our humanity…so many more why’s…
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I’m a regular guy, with a regular family, job, hobbies, smarts and talents and it seems to me if ‘god’ is directing this show he should be fired. I guess I’m too stupid, lost, uninformed, unwilling, blind, close minded and ignorant to understand the things of god and especially this ‘metanoia’ you’re talking about.
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The ability to choose I’ve described works for everyone. It’s practical for all of humankind. It improves peoples life experience. What’s the downside?
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Doug, I’ve come across several folks letting circumstances or people dictate their state of being who benefited from understanding how they could choose their state of being. Everyone has the ability but not everyone is consciously aware of it. People must exercise it in the little things so they can use it when the shit really hits the fan.
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I do appreciate AND learn from everyone who participates here.
Rick me old mate!
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You say, “Hey Brian, I could quote scripture to identify you as a serpent, idiot or apostle but that’s the problem with scripture ‘it’ is open to interpretation isn’t it?”
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That’s so true and simply confirms what I have been trying to say. It’s impossible to arrive at eternal truth through the natural human mind. HOWEVER! The meaning of those words of JC’s are embedded within us and if we are able to go there we’ll see what they truly mean. That’s the difference.
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You also say, “The ability to choose I’ve described works for everyone. It’s practical for all of humankind. It improves peoples life experience. What’s the downside?”
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The downside is that there are many things that can happen to us where we have no choice. I bet there are thousands of random events that people on this blog have experienced (through no fault of their own) that if they had the power of hindsight and choice they would not have allowed themselves to go through. We are not as free as we think we are Rick – in fact it’s quite the reverse. What have you chosen for yourself tomorrow – or tomorrow next year? Are you even still going to be around then?
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And also you say, “I’m a regular guy, with a regular family, job, hobbies, smarts and talents and it seems to me if ‘god’ is directing this show he should be fired. I guess I’m too stupid, lost, uninformed, unwilling, blind, close minded and ignorant to understand the things of god and especially this ‘metanoia’ you’re talking about.”
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There is no God in this world/life so there is no “God” to fire. So you are not stupid – you are right on! What we need to fire is the vain belief that “God” is running this show – then we can all go and find the real one. How can he run this outfit if he is coffined up within us with a bloody great rock rolled across the entrance to his tomb? We need to let him out! Hence “metanoia”! “To change the way we use our minds”. I could teach you that (how to shift that rock) if you are interested and from then on you can learn the real truth through yourself – you won’t need me to teach you!
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Could it be much simpler? A hell of a lot easier than trying to answer Jim’s mind bending questions anyway.
But Rick, you are forgetting who you REALLY are, when creation was spoken into being – you were there as part of the ‘us’. What you have described above is a normal human being, such as we all are, who from birth has been living in this world with just an itsy niggly feeling that there might be ’something else’ but unaware as yet, that within him resides ‘the seed’ of a new spiritual being with capabilities all of us so far can only dream about. The reason being as Brian has said – we’ve only touched the fringes. Talk about fairy tales, this one is FOR REAL! All this wonderful dimension was planned by the mind behind all things in the very beginning when you were created perfect in his likeness. You were created then as a spirit being, eternal and perfect and at some appointed time that human body you walk around in was formed in your mother’s womb with all the DNA of generations of humans, all thinking and believing and choosing to live within the cave – (to use Doug’s illustration from Plato). But that niggly feeling does not go away, (it’s a hunger and a thirst for truth). Something within us tells us this world is not the REAL one, no matter how much we try to reason things out.
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It’s NOT that you are any of those things you humbly suggest……..” (I guess I’m too stupid, lost, uninformed, unwilling, blind, close minded and ignorant to understand the things of god and especially this ‘metanoia’ you’re talking about”) It is just that you are expecting to see IT in this world, and this world CANNOT see it, nor can it understand it. It’s a whole different dimension, but IN YOU, you have the SEED waiting to germinate. We need each other to help this to happen and the REAL life begin, that eternal life, springing into being. Let’s go there and take hold of it – it is freely available to all.
Rick, first of all there ain’t nobody ever dictated my state of being, with the exception of my family. It dam sure hasn’t ever been God or the religious laws so many here have tried to dance to.
My state of being was developed by the ability to kick the ass of anyone that stepped between me and and anything i loved.
It was only when i let something greater then you, greater then me, touch my heart, that i felt the beauty of myself.
You dont feel your beauty yet Rick, my state of mind can feel that.
Hey this is so simple. You’ve all heard ‘what you eat is what you are’. Well, it’s true! We all have a garden (our life) and in it we have a tree in the centre.
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Test the tree at the centre of your life.
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.If it’s the tree of knowledge then we’ll be eating things we judge as good or bad (you make your choice), we’ll be limited to our five senses and to TIME, and we’ll easily conflict with others who differ from us in any way, be it through belief systems, understandings or culture and the only way for anything close to togetherness will be in agreeing to a set of principles or a set of beliefs or a type of education or a psycho – experience. None of these give true freedom.
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If, on the other hand, we have discovered that we have within us a DIFFERENT tree, and begin to taste it’s fruit a whole new world begins to open. Somehow our hearts are opened, our eyes see and we hear words we can understand. With this tree central in our garden we experience a togetherness, a lifting-up of our poor downtrodden selves and a relief from the burdens we’ve carried. There is freedom, love and joy and we touch eternity where anything is possible, there are no tears, no separation and no pain or death
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So how do we feed from the tree of life? ‘Metanoio and follow me’, said JC.
I hear what Audrey is saying!
I understand much that she is saying but my journey has been very different and I would want to express things in a slightly different way – with less religiosity!
I have been aware for many years now of the significance of the “Stages of Faith” that some people go through (those who move through head knowledge to a gradual heart awareness). It seems to me to be important that people are not faced with the awkward questions until they are ready to consider them.
I speak from experience. I’ve been married 49 years and my wife and I have a very different perspective on the meaning of the Christian faith!
I’d be happy to set up a blog where we could consider this in some depth.
For some of us the journey has involved an awful lot of head knowledge. There is endless debate about whether head knowledge can lead to heart awareness.
We are not all on the same journey. I have been drawn away from traditional Christianity but my wife is a worship leader. I know what it is like
Well congratulations Cheryl. You’ve discovered there’s no external “IT”. It’s a pity you had to go through all that emotional stuff finding out. I would have thought it was pretty obvious to most people.
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You say “Now I know that that love is IN ME. And I know it is also IN OTHERS. I can’t unknow that.”
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Tell us more about this life changing love business of yours that you want to flow on to others. It could be that is what I am trying to turn people towards. What triggered it for you? We don’t need names or intimate emotional details. How do you think it could happen to others? Do you see all other people differently now? If so in what way? Perhaps you could give us your thoughts on this for us?
Cheryl is there in the garden!
She has described it beautifully in a picture that I as a compulsive gardener, can relate to completely!
See what she has written here:
http://livinginabeautifulmess.blogspot.com/2009/08/garden.html
Brian
Could you please consider what you have just written:
I would have thought it was pretty obvious to most people.
You then said:
It could be that is what I am trying to turn people towards.
Could you then please reread what Cheryl has written in her previous reply:
But I don’t think I have the right to tell someone else what they should feel. What they should think. Or what they should believe. That means I am judging them and think I have the ability to decide FOR them. I don’t! I’m living authentically…for me that means I can/do/will challenge anything and everything. But that “challenge” has to happen organically inside of me.
I would love to be able to share Cheryl’s picture with others. I appear to have a knack of asking the awkward questions to which there are no easy answers. If we ask questions and let people be guided by the Holy Spirit, that might be better than trying to tell people what we think they should be doing.
Brian, I’m not questioning what you and Audrey are trying to share, but I can see that how you are trying to say it is seen by some as arrogant and even offensive.
You are right OP? I have been brash with Cheryl. My apologies Cheryl and I’m sorry. I had no intentions of telling you what you should do and I didn’t think I did. I am very happy for you.
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Because I had previously claimed there was an “IT” I was wondering whether Cheryl was challenging me over this so I thought I had better qualify what I meant by “IT”. I agree with you Cheryl – there is no external “IT”. However the bubbling love that you have discovered sounds far more akin to the “IT” that I am meaning. Perhaps that is “IT”? If you have brought it out into the open and laid your offering on the table, so to speak, then can’t we investigate that further?
Brian, with all due respect, it appears that you are always attempting to force people to see things from your perspective. Everyone is on their own journey and arrives at different conclusions at different times. I am nearly going to stop coming here because I don’t feel very comfortable with things I’ve seen happening here lately. Jesus is a Gentleman and doesn’t force himself on anyone.
Brian, it seems like you might be missing the point about ‘choice’. Anything can & does happen to anyone that’s where choice kicks in b/c during and after we can choose to feel howevere we want, we are not prisoners of our emotions, we can choose what we want to feel.
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Audrey, I’ve been down the road of ‘god is all’ and that’s a working dedfinition of god, to me, but I don’t need to define who I am or who god is anymore. I don’t feel a God shaped hole inside me anymore and I’m content to live life as it is helping people as I c@an along the way.
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Doug, it seems to me we choose to allow circumstances & people to dictate our state of being without recogniIng we can choose not to. Also, it’s helpful when parricipating on blogs to ‘not’ make judgements about the other people participating rather focusung on their ideas & comments b/c what could anyone really know about another in this medium?
I don’t have time for any of this intellectual bs anymore; i am running out of patience..I don’t know about any of you guys but I have serious isssues to deal with in my life. I have to keep my mind real simple because if I don’t I can get crazy…I need real, practical, NOW answers, direction, encouragement and support. I am trying to stay away from alcohol, bulimia, and adderall right now…plus, taking care of a family and my sister’s baby because she is in detox right now because she is much more dependent on drugs than I have ever been. I don’t know if I can keep looking at this blog because i end up more confused!!
I agree Jen B.
Hey Cheryl Ensom,
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I really appreciate and identify with your entire post…pretty much sums it up for me too. My apologies if my post about the human ability to choose clogs things up for you and anyone else. It really helps me. In the past, and sometimes now too, I’ve found myself feeling shitty in some way or another because of someone or some circumstance but now I decide to put the past behind, seek reconciliation/forgiveness/resolution/whatever if possible and move on. I’m not a machine and still experience deep feelings as before but I choose not to let the pain turn into suffering. I ask myself “why would I choose to feel that way anymore?”. Sometimes I run down the options of feeling that way for a bit longer ‘wallowing in it’ to let grief/whatever run it’s course but after a while I’m like screw this!…and move on.
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Jen B. I absolutely hate that you’re dealing with all that. I’ve described how I deal with stuff and I hope it’s practical enough to help you. I do know that alcohol, bulimia & adderall won’t make you feel better permanently or improve your life situation. It’s great that you’ve acknowledged those things as stuff you need to stay away from, many folks don’t get that. Each moment your free of those things is a HUGE success and you need to acknowledge your accomplishments like that. I think everyone here would, at least, agree with that! Nobody can take an addiction away, it’s something you choose. That doesn’t make it something to difficult to overcome but it does mean it’s your decision. At one point in my life I was addicted to processed foods. I know that might sound laughable compared to your situation but it’s all relative. All it took for me was to see processed food in a new light, to see it NOT as food at all…and you usually don’t eat something you don’t consider food. Problem solved. I don’t know how that might translate with the alcohol, bullimia and adderal other than seeing them as stuff that exacerbates your problems rather than eliminating them. Usually we wouldn’t jump in a pool of gasoline when we’re on fire.
We have had a couple of great examples of metanoio, which is simply the act of turning from one world which we think to be real and discovering there’s another world much better that really is REAL.
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One is Doug’s example from Plato who described people in a cave with their backs to the entrance, viewing shadows on the rear wall of things passing the entrance outside. They thought the shadows were the reality, but when one or two were curious enough to turn they discovered a new reality. Instead of flat colourless shapes moving on the wall they discovered colourful 3-dimensional forms.
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The second is Cheryl’s vision of the garden described beautifully in the link Old Pete gives above. This is worth reading many times over because as you humbly open yourself to discover, you will ’see’ much more in this than on the first reading.
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Here is another from Titfortat.
Heaven is an Amusement Park
How could I have been so blind? All these years discussing, thinking and subconsciously waiting for heaven to pop up, little did I know that it is located just north of Toronto, Canada on highway 400. Here we all were, waiting for the joy to begin. Black, white, red, yellow and brown. Young and old, male and female. All faiths gathered together for one thing. FUN, pure unadulterated JOY. Sure there were moments of Nausea, but fortunately the man with the “Jesus will save you tattoo” had some pepto bismol. Also, I could see the fear in the eyes of the Muslim woman covered by her niqab just before we started down the Vortex. I calmly reassured her everthing would be fine and to just be brave for a moment. The next time our eyes met she had tears of joy in them. Her thankful glance warmed my heart. Cousins sat with their nieces and nephews who were afraid, while mom and dad relived their youth on the Behemoth. Even more unbelievable was when the white supremacist had to ride with the black man because his buddies filled the seats and left him odd man out. At the end of that ride they were both hollering and laughing about how great the ride was. Seems in the midst of Joy we forget how to hate. Drop your hat, someone picks it up for you. Lose your balance and there were many to lend you an arm. Laughter and joy were everywhere. And while some cried, there were words of support from others. Sometimes in the midst of our search we fail to see what is directly in front of us.I guess the Magic Man Jesus nailed it when he said this.
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”
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All of you will have had such experiences as the REALITY within you knocks on your heart’s door asking to be let out! But, having enjoyed the special moment, we turn back to the wall or the chains, our head-thinking and put this experience down to the place we were in or the people we were with. What it was is a moment when we suspended our beliefs and opened up to our internal reality.
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They are two separate worlds. The earth world ruled by our mind has no way of reaching up into the heaven world. No amount of trying or believing or man-made equipment or even death will get you there. The way is BLOCKED – there is NO LADDER LEADING UP.
The heaven-dimension however HAS provided a way and reached down to take you up. It has been provided from the moment of creation and is waiting for you to wake up and turn to it and receive this free gift of LIFE. Love gave of his own self and planted within you, himself.
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Jen, in your day-ful of busyness in caring for others and keeping away from the things that tempt you to ‘blot out’, you can turn to this place, you don’t have to go anywhere or do anything, just turn to it, you’ll feel the response like a quickening of new life within your womb area. And that’s what it is, the REAL Jen waking up inside the old Jen.
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I want to respond to the concerns about my “uncaring and overbearing” attitude that I am acccused of having. I am well aware of what I am doing and there are reasons for this so I’d like a chance to clear up the misunderstandings. Let me try and explain – Not f***ing again – please!!! Sorry! Stay with me and I’ll try and give an example to show you what I am trying to do.
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Thirty six years ago when our faith was high – no limits, anything was possible – we ran an open home – from the farm homestead. People, mainly churchy Christians, began to hear what was happening out at our place and we became inundated with problem people wanting help. Most were dropped off by relatives and then they would leave us to it. Most times we were left with little knowledge of their backgrounds.
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One such case was a 30ish year old girl named Wendy who was literally dumped on our doorstep. Apparently when she was at univerity she had spun out and gone into deep depression. No one could do anything with her and she became an inmate in a psychiatric institution near the bottom of the South Island. We heard later that she spent much of her 10 year stay in a solitary room. I know when I greeted her and her escorts, which happened to be at our back door, she couldn’t manage the two steps into the hallway. I had to carry her. Then there she stood unsteadily in a very drab dress, hair all over the place, no make up, an obvious mess of humanity. It was tragic – a young woman who should have been in the prime of life. Her attendants left – they didn’t bother coming in. Most people we got landed with were reluctant to come in the first place anyway. It was desperation that brought them.
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All we could do was to make her at home the best we could among the few other “cases” we had there at the time and sto ee what unravelled. It was about two days later that Robin was talking to a Christian visitor who was asking about Wendy and how she going? They were talking in the main kitchen which had a servery opening that was used for the main dining room next door and unbeknown to them Wendy and a couple of others were sitting in there.
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Robin let fly and said, “There’s nothing wrong with Wendy! She’s perfectly all right!”. All hell broke out next door. Wendy was yelling and screaming at Robin telling her how metally sick she was and she had no right to say that and she needed real help and sympathy. (Have we heard this sort of thing before somewhere?) I walked in at that time and saw Wendy waving her arms, ranting and raving, her face all screwed up and contorted. I supported Robin and told her she was perfectly all right. Wendy stomped off to her room packing one hell of a sad and we never saw her for a day or so.
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Eventually she came back. She was a completely new person. Smiles, tears of joy and a wonderful softness. The old mad “Wendy” had gone. A couple of days later we sent her home – completely healed – her parents couldn’t believe it – she had a whole new life. After ten years in a loony bin being treated by experts she was “fixed” in about as many seconds. I can’t tell you where she is now but for many years shed ‘phone us periodically and update us on where she was at. She became a perfectly normal person.
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So what really happened? Rick can take credit for having half the answer! Wendy “made a choice!” But where your thinking has limitations Rick is that it doesn’t open up access to the deeper choice that a person can have so as to reach the real power source. You scoff at that because you don’t realize that “IT” exists! I guess that’s not your fault. I’m sure people have done their best to make choices along the way you suggest and found it wanting. I bet Jen B has struggled many times using your “mind over matter” system with frustrating results.
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We found that for it to work we must hit the real and that more often than not requires a hearty shove to get the person there. To do that we need to be in contact with that source too so we can speak confidently.
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We used to do quite a lot with alcoholics and they can be set free in much the same way. We had one guy, Jim, who was sent to us through a Salavation Army connection. He was a mess and had spent a fair proportion of his life in jail and part of his last sentence was that he had to go to a alcoholic rehabilitaion centre. After he had been there a little while he got sent to us and he got “IT”! He was as free as you and me and was able to sit down and drink normally with us like anyone else. The experts reckon that is not possible for an alcoholic – well it is! I know this is true because Jim finished up working for us for 10 years or so. He was a butcher by trade and ran the farm butchery.
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So what I am trying to do is here on Jim’s blog is to give things a little push along so we can reach this dimension. It is impossible to do this without treading on a few toes by having to lay down a few challenges. I know many of you don’t even believe that it exists which doesn’t make it any easier. I’m trying to scrape this false Jesus righteous bullshit intellectual veneer off this blog so we can get to the real concealed beneath. Like we are at present we are almost powerless.
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And with all due respect to you too Sunflower Mamma, that while I agree with you that the spirit of JC wouldn’t force itself upon us, we do have to force ourselves upon Him if we want some action – then you’ll see what this gentleman Jesus is like! He’s nothing like your Sunday School image either – that’s just us doing a “Jesus” imatation. I’d love to see us all working together to get there. It’s not hard but to go anywhere we’ve got to mean it. There is no room for a two faced compromises. There are some desperate people among us that need immediate help and just being kind to them and supporting them in that way is not going to fix their problems. They need the real thing!
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Look what happened to me recently? Diagnosed with an aggressive invasive cancer that was going to kill me within 18 months. I mentioned it on Jim’s blog to see if there was any signs of faith. All I got was a couple of acknowledgements telling me they felt sorry. What flaming use is that? See how powerless we are? What was so humiliating for me was that I’d been instrumental in bringing people through far worse calamaties than that but years later I couldn’t get to it myself! There was no REAL faith anywhere and Robin was struggling. After refusing surgery I was eventually forced to succumb because I wasn’t sure I had the faith to go it alone. I have tests a few days before Xmas to see whether things seem sucessful or not.
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I do feel faith building up again and maybe with the help of one or two of you here we can get things going like they were back then? They were fun days. Nothing is impossible you know and this time we won’t lose our way! And believe me it is for real. It’s got to start somewhere so why not here?